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I know what you're thinking, but why not give the poor circus another…

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I know what you're thinking, but why not give the poor circus another chance?


Official 2-3 Discussion Post

For all your discussing needs! Or something! Feel free to post:
  • Entertaining quotes!

  • Thought-provoking meta!

  • Wild crack theories!

  • Plot bunnies!

  • Naive explanations for death!

  • Questioning the logic of setting up such a complicated frame job!


  • Anything and everything else!

Have at it! And have fun!
  • Oops, I misunderstood something you said earlier and didn't pay attention to the new schedule... I thought there was going to be a week break between each case, so I've happily been dawdling along replaying 2.2 in Japanese. Back to playing 2.3 in English now! (I had gotten about half way into it before the schedule slowed down.)

    I really hate the circus case, though. I gather I'm not alone? I have a feeling Moe's stupid not-jokes are going to be even worse in Japanese. (Not least because in Japanese, I might not understand what's not funny. /facepalm)
    • I would love to hear your thoughts on the comparisons!! And I wanna know what everyone refers to each other as <3

    I actually hated this case, but I have a few notes about it


    -HATE Moe but "In West Clownadelphia, born and raised..." I lol'd

    -Maya sure acts weird when the word "coma" comes up. I wonder if she knows about Diego

    -"You're the man now, doll!" also, Maya getting schooled on love by a doll is hilarious


    -Franziska so was like "COME, ACRO, TO THE PROSECUTIONMOBILE"

    -I LOVED Maya's HOLD IT! at the critical moment (Actually, Diego does that to Mia in 3-4... I wonder if that was an intentional parallel or maybe I'm reading too much into it.) Also, Phoenix being like WHAAAAAAT and Franziska going WHY ARE YOU THE MOST SURPRISED PERSON HERE?! SHE'S YOUR ASSISTANT! Also, Maya being BIG DAMN HERO is awesome

    -bawww Acro. I felt bad for him ): I think Regina's attitude would drive me nuts in his position too, even though she can't help it


    -Also, I think Max is a douche but I thought it was sweet the way he wanted everyone to have ambition. If only he had expressed himself better

    Edited at 2010-10-25 01:49 am (UTC)
  • This case has grown on me a lot, actually. The first time I played it I hated it, but the more I replay it the more I enjoy it. It's surprisingly profound at times and so sad.

    - Heh, I love that Maya is more upset about Max being a country bumpkin than she is about him being accused of murder. I wonder what he looks like without his usual getup?

    - "Let me lay it all out for you... The pay sucks...The clown sucks...And my partner has his hand up my pants."

    - When you look past Moe's godawful puns and the fact that he's clown (...neither of which are easy to look past when he's rubbing them in your face half the time) he's actually a pretty decent, even interesting, character.

    - Acro's story is a funny one when you think about it: he joined the circus because his parents ran away from him.

    - I don't remember presenting Franziska's profile to Acro on my previous playthroughs, or I don't remember him commenting that Phoenix was just like Franziska, at least. It's an optional exchange and probably not meant to be read into too much, but I still found that it said a lot. Namely, "You two may view things from very different perspectives...for now. But you both see the world through the same color-tinted glasses." Sounds like a foreshadowing of one of the themes to be made explicit in the next case. (...Acro reminds me bizarrely of Mia, actually.)

    And then there's (in response to going for the "Of course I'll cross-examine" option) Franziska's "You don't care about justice, do you? You just want to fabricate a motive..." which sounds similar to the bitter "All prosecutors are the same" attitude Phoenix displays throughout the game.
    • You've actually hit upon something I think is really interesting about Franziska: that she's the prosecutor that comes closest to being the anti-Phoenix.

      Edgeworth never really seems to believe in the guilt of Phoenix's client the same way that Phoenix believes in their innocence. Godot's just there to be a dick to Phoenix, he never seemed all that invested in what was actually taking place. Franziska, I think, has the same kind of stubborn belief as Phoenix, it's just that she was raised by Manfred.

      I mean, it's hard to think that Edgeworth really believed in Redd's innocence, or that Godot believed in Luke or Furio's innocence, but it's easy to think that Franziska quite honestly believed that Ini, Acro and Adrian didn't do it; that Maya-channeling-Mimi, Max, and Matt were the real murderers. (And one out of three ain't is bad, but it's a better arrest rate than any other prosecutor.)

      Another possible parallel: Franziska is biased against defense attorneys from growing up in the von Karma household, whereas Phoenix is biased against prosecutors because Edgeworth was a big drama queen and faked suicide. Franziska's no angel, but there's a part of 2-3 where Franziska says that Acro couldn't possibly have committed the murder and asks him to testify about what he can and can't do in his physical state. It's a perfectly reasonable objection, but Phoenix still inner-monologues about Franziska being the lowest of the low for not instantly rolling over once he accuses a witness.

      I think 2-4 would have been a lot more interesting if Franziska had prosecuted. 1-4 was really all about Edgeworth and 3-5 was a lot about wrapping up Godot's story, but Franziska really got shortchanged in her own game. Having her choose to pass up an opportunity to defeat Phoenix would have been a pretty significant step for her character. Plus, she was trying so hard to beat Phoenix and be better than Edgeworth that having her actually succeed and realizing how much it didn't matter would have been a really interesting ending.

      (One other thing I noticed: Gumshoe's testimony didn't have any contradictions this case! Yay Gumshoe!)

      I think that it's because Franziska is a better investigator than the other prosecutors. A lot of other cases have some vital evidence passed over at the scene of the crime that the prosecutors don't find, like the gunpowder in 4-3, Plum's bloomers in 4-2, the victim's medication and magazine with the victim's handwriting in 3-3, but Franziska makes a pretty clean sweep of the circus, and the only reason she arrests Max instead of Acro are some pretty ridiculously contrived circumstances that are like the universe itself was trying to frame Max. As such, there really isn't anything Gumshoe can say about the basic facts of the case that can be disproved.
      • Well part of Edgeworth's development was that after Phoenix showed up, he started to doubt whether the defendants were actually guilty. I mean, up until 1-2 he had believed them all to be genuinely guilty (or deluded himself or something). 1-2 is kind of fuzzy, especially with the defendant changing from Maya to Phoenix in one day. But in 1-3, he helps Phoenix out after he realizes Vasquez is the guilty party (iirc)

        Although I lol'd at the "Godot is just there to be a dick to Phoenix" because it's totally true.

        Honestly, it seemed more like Franziska wanted her perfect case than caring about the guilt so much. I mean, especially how she flips her lid in 2-2. (However that could just be the way the story was set up- make her look like the villain, and then bam 2-4 and prosecutor ending) And she missed the key in 2-2 IIRC, and the bullet holes in the clothing box? Although the evidence itself was a little confusing in that case. Her investigation of 2-3 was pretty clean, though.

        That's an interesting point, though. And Maya-as-Mimi/Max/Matt are the more "suspicious" clients. Max is a dick, Matt... well, Matt was Matt, and Maya herself was convinced she was responsible. Compare to Maya in 1-2 (who had no motive/wasn't even tall or strong enough to club Mia over the head), Will Powers (who is the most harmless nice guy ever), Edgeworth (who's... well. Actually, he was a bit suspicious to begin with, but he's too much of a woobie). And in game three, Ron Delite... who is just a pansy ass, come on. And Maggey, who was already proven innocent and pretty much set up by Tigre.

        But of all the game 2 defendants (not counting 2-1 since it's Payne), Matt was actually the least suspicious, ironically.
        • Edgeworth says something in 1-2 to the effect of "I can't know for certain whether a defendant is innocent or guilty so I must try to get them all declared Guilty!" which is pretty obviously bullshit that he doesn't really believe, but he still tells himself that to make himself feel better. He leaves everything to the detectives and never really makes an effort to investigate things for himself. Franziska, for all her flaws, does take the investigations very seriously. Granted, she was raised by Manfred von Karma, so her priorities are all screwed up, and I wouldn't doubt that she's motivated largely by the desire for a perfect case. However, "prosecute somebody who you have personally determined is the most likely suspect," is quite a bit different from, "Eh, just prosecute whoever the well-known-to-be-incompetent detectives arrest."

          At least Franziska realizes that there is a link between getting the right person and getting the right verdict, and even if she only sees the link as, "getting the right person makes it easier to get a Guilty verdict," that stills puts her a bit ahead of Edgeworth, who (before Phoenix defeats him) will prosecute anyone. I mean, 2-1 chronologically takes place between 2-2 and 2-3. Franziska should have jumped at the chance to prosecute against Phoenix, unless she looked at the case file and decided, "I can't prosecute a case this terribly investigated; I'll just pass it off to Payne and fire and/or whip the fool responsible for this." (Headcanon: Mike Meekins was the guy dumb enough to arrest Maggey for Dustin Prince's murder)

          As for the key, not only was it disposed of in the incinerator (not at the scene of the crime), but Pearl snatched it up pretty early on. Franziska didn't really have a chance to find it herself. And as for the bullet hole in the clothing box, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the clothing box wasn't in the Spare Room until after the first trial day was already over. Before then, Morgan and Mimi likely had it hidden in some random corridor.

          Tangent: Phoenix in AA is like, "Edgeworth, what happened to you?" whenever Miles does something bad and is like, "Have you no shame, von Karma? All prosecutors are evil!" whenever Franziska does something that's about as bad as what Miles did. (Even though Franziska was younger and never had the positive role model that Edgeworth did.) That's understandable, considering how Phoenix felt his trust in Edgeworth was betrayed, but it doesn't make him right about Franziska.

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